Mr. BEASER. Mr. Chamberlain, since you sat down, an exhibit has been put up which is an attempt to show graphically the organizational setup of the National Comic Publications, Inc. It shows the Independent News Co., of which I gather you are the circulation director. Then it shows the Lafayette Color Press, which is wholly owned, and the All American Printing Co., Inc., which is owned pretty much by the same people.

            It shows that the Independent News Co. distributes magazines published by the Signal Publishing Co., which issues crime or horror comics; the Signal Publishing Co., being owned by one of the same people who owns the National Comic Publications.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. May. I interrupt, please?

            That is not correct. I. Donenfeld is not the same as H. Donenfeld.

            Mr. BEASER. There is no relationship?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. There is a relationship, but it is not the same.

            Mr. BEASER. You distribute the Prize Comic group material?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes.

            Mr. BEASER. Then the National Comic Publications, Inc., is wholly owned by the National Comics Publications and those are publishers?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is right.

            Mr. BEASER. And then the American Comic group and Beverly Publishing Co., which issue no crime or horror comics?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Correct, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Now, could I ask you a few questions, please, about the National Comics Publishing Co.? They put out what I call the Superman comics?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is correct. That was the original identifying symbol, the Superman D. C. symbol, and it has now become known as the National Comics group.

            Mr. BEASER. They also issue other kinds of magazines?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir; just comics.

            Mr. BEASER. They also issue comics other than Superman?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes.

            Mr. BEASER. Are those representative samples of the names, Detective Comics, Gang Busters?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is not representative. They have their comics broken down into various groups. I might identify them for you.

            Mr. BEASER. Would you, please?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. We have first the animated type comic, which is the Dodo the Frog, Flippity and Flop, Fox and Crow, Nutsie Squirrel, and so forth. They have 12 such comics in that group.

            They have the adventure type, such as Superman, Action, Adventure Magazine, and Congo Bill. There are 11 titles in that group. Then we have the detective type, and there are five, and of those are Mr. District Attorney, Big Town, Gangbusters ─ in the National Comics group there are three, Big Town, Gangbusters, and Mr. District Attorney.

            Then they have the humor, which is Bob Hope and Martin and Lewis and Mutt and Jeff. They have teen-age comics such as Date With Judy, which is a strip similar to the televison and radio program.

            Here is Howie, Pinkie, Buzzie.

            They have western comics such as Hopalong Cassidy.

            They have war type comics; such as All American Men of War, and then science and space fiction, Mystery, and Space and Strange Adventure, and one which you apparently classify in your presentation here as fantasy, is House of Mystery. That is the only one which you might categorize in that group.

            Mr. BEASER. Mr. Chamberlain, all of the Superman national comic magazines carry a statement about the editorial advisory board, do they not?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is correct.

            Mr. BEASER. Showing that Dr. Lauretta Bender, Josette Frank, Dr. W. W. D. Sones, Dr. S. Harcourt Peppard, are members of the advisory board of the Superman comics group.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is correct.

            Mr. BEASER. They are still members?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. What actually are their duties insofar as content of your Superman comic group publication is concerned?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. In contrast to our former witness, Mr. Freedman, I am not an authority on all branches of this industry. I am at the national distributing end of it and I do not feel that I am qualified to tell you their exact duties. I do not know.

            Mr. BEASER. They act as advisers to the corporation; is that it?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I understand that they do, sir, but I cannot tell you their exact duties.

            The CHAIRMAN. The Chair wishes to interrupt counsel at the moment.

            I am happy to announce the arrival of my distinguished colleague, the Senator from Missouri, Mr. Hennings.

            Senator HENNINGS. Thank you. I had to come all the way from Danville, Va., for this hearing and I am sorry to be late today.

            The CHAIRMAN. All right, Counsel, you may proceed.

            Mr. BEASER. Then you do not; know the standards which are followed in deciding what content goes into the Superman group?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. There is a very definite and spelled-out code that is followed by our editors and our artists, in preparing the material for the Superman, D. C., or National Comic group.

            Mr. BEASER. How is that code arrived at?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. It was arrived at, I believe, by this board of advisers.

            Mr. BEASER. Does this board screen the comics?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Again I am not qualified to answer that positively.

            Mr. BEASER. You do not know whether they make suggestions from time to time?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I believe they do, but again I am not positive.

            Mr. BEASER. Now, the type of material I have noticed in the Superman group differs considerably from the type of material in the magazines distributed by the Independent News Co., despite the fact that the three owners are the same. Can you account for the incongruity of setting up an advisory board for one operation, and then distributing material such as is contained in Black Magic or Frankenstein, and so forth?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. We must admit that it is incongruous because of this: We are in the Independent News Co., a national distributing outfit. It is true that we are a subsidiary concern of National Comics, Inc.; we represent a number of publishers other than those that publish comic magazines.

            We do have a set of standards by which guide ourselves in the magazines that we distribute to the Independent News Co. We have, and many times in the past, refused to distribute certain magazines that have been presented to us by our present publishers. That has happened in the past 8 or 10 months, as matter of fact.

            Mr. BEASER. Which magazines were those, do you know?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Not in the comic-book field. They are outside the comic-book field.

            However, when this first investigation came to New York, of your committee, we sat down and discussed the entire matter, and it was decided at that time that we would eliminate through the news company any magazines that we felt bordered on the type that you were investigating. We do not feel that even these magazines are the worst in the field, but they do border on your weird, fantastic group that you are investigating, and we have eliminated them and they are off the market, or will be in the next 30 days. Titles such as "Frankenstein," "Out of the Night," "Forbidden Worlds," and one which you do not have there, "Clutching Hand," have been killed.

            Mr. BEASER. Killed in what way?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. They no longer will be published or distributed on the newsstands.

            Mr. BEASER. They have gone out of business; is that it?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. The publisher, for example, the American Comics group, has not gone out of business, but they are not going to publish Forbidden Worlds, or Out of the Night any more.

            Mr. BEASER. They decided that they would not do it and you decided you would not distribute it?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is correct.

            Mr. BEASER. What others have you decided not to distribute?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. In the case of Adventures Into the Unknown, the editorial content of that is to be changed to bring it entirely out of the realm of the present editorial content. The title will remain the same for the time being. They will gradually try to work the title off.

            The same holds true for Black Magic, wherein the editorial content will be changed completely.

            Those are the only changes that are being made in the magazines which you have presented before me.

            Mr. BEASER. And any of the other magazines that you carry ─ crime and horror comics?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. We don't have any others. In fact, I think you have included a number here, sir, that do not fall in this category.

            Mr. BEASER. Now, let me get the process straight. You sat down with Mr. Bleier and Mr. Epstein, of Prize Comics.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Correct.

            Mr. BEASER. And you told them you would no longer carry ─ this is since we held our hearing?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is right.

            Mr. BEASER. You would no longer carry Black Magic?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. We would no longer carry Frankenstein, and he must change the editorial content of Black Magic, or we will not distribute it.

            Mr. BEASER. Let me get a little bit into the publishing mechanism. Does the editor of Black Magic submit the copy of Black Magic for October to you before it is sent to the printer?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, he does not. He submits it to his publisher. His publisher, Bleier & Epstein, knows of the standards by which Independent News Co. operates.

            There have been times that material got into a magazine, and we did not know of it until after the magazine had been printed and shipped, and it was then a case of just trying to mend bridges and reprimanding the editor and the artist to see that it would not occur again.

            Mr. BEASER. Actually, the first time you see the magazine is after it is printed?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is right, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. You see no draft copy before?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No.

            Mr. BEASER. Now, what kinds of standards then do you set up with respect to Mr. Bleier and Mr. Epstein?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Mr. Bleier and Mr. Epstein have been publishers of comic magazines since 1940, I believe. Their first comic was Prize Comics, which is still being published.

            We became their national distributors in 1941 or 1942. I am not sure of the exact date. They have been associated in those 12 or 13 years with our company and have become familiar with the standard or the type of merchandise that we will distribute for them.

            I would like to recall that they distributed "Frankenstein" about 1946. We got after them about the type of material in the magazine and they changed it to a humorous type of character, they made "Frankenstein" the goat of children's play.

            When they did it, the magazine died, the magazine did not sell, and they discontinued it.

            Mr. BEASER. That was when, sir?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That was about 1948. It was revived again just a few years ago and now it has gone again.

            Mr. BEASER. Now let me ask you one question about Mr. Bleier and Mr. Epstein. They publish just comics; is that it?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir; they do publish a romance magazine. They publish a magazine called Man's Life.

            Mr. BEASER. They also publish books?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Not to my knowledge, not through our company.

            Mr. BEASER. You would not distribute books?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Let me go through the process which you have done with the American Comics group.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. There is a relationship there, I gather, between Mr. Iger and one of the owners of the National Comics group?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is right.

            Mr. BEASER. You went through the same process and sat down with Mr. Iger and Mr. Sanger and told them certain magazines would not be carried?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is correct.

            Mr. BEASER. They agreed to kill those magazines?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is right.

            Mr. BEASER. Are they going to substitute others for them?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That very possibly will be done.

            Mr. BEASER. Are they going to adopt the code that the Superman group has adopted?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I can't speak for them on that point. Let me say this, that they publish right now magazines such as Ha Ha and Giggle Comics, which are the animated type of comic, along with some teen-age comics, of which "Cookie" is one.

            They do hold a very high standard in that type of comic, but they have had these three comics in their line.

             I might say this, that the reason for those comics was not because they are out to frighten children. They were asked by some distributors, Mr. Iger and Mr. Sanger, "'Why don't you put out a comic like this? They are selling."

            The reason that that type of material has sold, I believe, is the tremendous amount of publicity that has been given to the weird and horror comics.

            The good class, clean comic, has been hurt by the publicity given to these comics.

            In other words, there has not been enough complimentary remarks passed on good clean comic reading.

            The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chamberlain, do you mean to imply that the publicity came from this subcommittee?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No sir; I don't mean that at all, sir. It has come over the past 3 or 4 years.

            The CHAIRMAN. I was sure that that was not your intention.

            Senator HENNINGS. In further development of the point which the Senator has raised, from what sources did you expect this comment relating to the clean comics to come, or from what sources had you hoped it might come?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Well, sir, as you probably know, there are many groups across the United States and Canada who have set themselves up as censors, as bodies to determine what is good or bad for the youngsters to read, and too often, is the case, that they say, this is bad, but they make no comment whatsoever as to what is good or where the publishers should be praised for their work in trying to put out good, decent literature.

            Senator HENNINGS. The comment is negative, rather than positive as it relates to all of the field?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is correct, sir.

            Senator HENNINGS. Thank you.

            The CHAIRMAN. The good is taken for granted.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Or comdemned by insinuations that all comics are bad.

            The CHAIRMAN. Counsel, you may proceed.

            Mr. BEASER. But actually, Mr. Chamberlain, the crime and horror comics would not have been published had there not been a market?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is correct.

            Mr. BEASER. In other words, you would not throw 300,000 copies of a magazine out just on the chance that some remarks would be made that would indicate ─

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. You are absolutely correct in that, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Also, is it not true that the type of material which has appeared in Adventures into the Unknown is quite different from that which you would permit in your House of Mystery?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is right, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Despite the fact that you distribute both?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is right.

            Mr. BEASER. Despite the fact you have an advisory committee for one and not the other?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes.

            Mr. BEASER. Incidentally, will the same advisory committee work with the American Comic group?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

            Mr. BEASER. Do you know whether other distributors are doing the same thing with the publishers of crime and horror magazines?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir; I cannot speak for the other distributors.

            Mr. BEASER. Is not that one way of getting the odium off the good and onto the bad?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. It certainly is, very definitely is. We feel we do not want to be subject to any criticism by this committee, or any other committee, for that matter, in the comic magazines that we distribute. The Superman comics, or National Comic as we call them, are one of the biggest groups in the country. We have a lot at stake in this business and we want to do the best thing possible for the comic industry.

            That is why we have taken this step with our outside publishers.

            Mr. BEASER. Now, Independent News Distributors own no comics?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Other types of magazines?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. If I am a wholesaler in New York City and you are supplying me through the Independent News Co. with magazines, what do you do ─ do you send me a list of magazines that will be published and ask me how many I want?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir. The basic fundamental rules of distribution in the magazine industry is that the national distributor, the Independent News Co., gets together with its publisher and decides upon a national print order, which is a national distribution.

            We then lay out, based on sales figures which we maintain in our office, a distribution to all of the various wholesalers around the United States and Canada. We decide upon what quantity we shall send to any given town.

             Mr. BEASER. I get no choice as a wholesaler?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir. That allotment is set up, based on the sales in your own agency of either that particular magazine or similar type magazines. It is done with names, of getting the most sales possible out of the initial print order setup.

            You can, however, and it is done many times over by the wholesalers ─ if they feel they have gotten too few or too many of any given number, they write, wire, or refuse to accept their complete allotment.

            Mr. BEASER. If I am a wholesaler and return to you some of these magazines you send, crime and horror, do you keep a service charge in any event?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. We have no service charge at all.

            Mr. BEASER. Is that a practice in the industry?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is a practice only as a service between Mr. Wholesaler and Mr. News Dealer.

            Mr. BEASER. But not between the distributor and the wholesaler?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is right.

            Mr. BEASER. There is no financial loss to me because you sent me too many magazines?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Now, how does this come? Does it come in a bundle?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, comics generally are packed in cartons rather than in paper bundles.

            Mr. BEASER. I as one of your wholesalers will get a bundle generally mixed up with different ─

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Each will be separate?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. You will get a shipment of Superman comics, a thousand comics or five hundred.

            Mr. BEASER. I can reject those without rejecting others?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is right, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You are referring only to the publications that you handle?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I am speaking for the Independent News Co.; yes, sir. But I can tell you that it is a general practice of the trade, too.

            Mr. BEASER. Since you are wholly owned there, it is really difficult to ask about the relationship between you and the publisher. Do the publishers have a service charge?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. There is no breakage that anyone gains on sending too many comics out?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir.

             Mr. BEASER. One further question on the distribution. Actually, then ─ I suppose it would be you, the Independent News Co. ─ who decides what publications will be published?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. What publications we will distribute. We have been offered in the course of the last month some 12 or 14 publications, publishers who have an idea for a magazine, not necessarily a comic, although a couple of them were comics, and they come to us and ask us if we will distribute their publications for them.

            Mr. BEASER. As a wholesaler, the first time I find out anything about it is when the magazines arrive on my shelf.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. When we send you an announcement that we are distributing X magazine.

            Mr. BEASER. I am not asked whether I want it. I am told I am going to get it.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is correct, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Do you have any financial arrangements between yourself, the Independent News Co., and the Prize Comics?

            In other words, do you advance them funds so that they can publish their magazines?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Not in the sense that you present it. Let me say this: I don't know that this specifically holds true for Prize Comics, but it would hold true perhaps for another company, but on delivery of copies, we may advance to them a percentage of the dollar value of the magazines that they are delivering to us. That percentage can run from zero to 25 percent. If it were as high as 25 percent, that certainly is not going to pay for the cost of production of their magazine.

            But that is just a bond between us that we believe we will sell at least that number of copies.

            Mr. BEASER. The printing bills are paid by the publisher?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. By the publisher.

            Mr. BEASER. You do not guarantee or advance money for printing bills?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. In what countries are your magazines distributed outside the United States?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. We go all over the world pretty much. Of course, Canada is the main country. We are in Mexico; we are in South America. We have some comics that go to South America.

            Mr. BEASER. Cuba?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Cuba.

            Mr. BEASER. Canal Zone?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Puerto Rico?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Virgin Islands?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes.

            Mr. BEASER. Turkey?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. Japan, Germany?

            Senator HENNINGS. Are these books you send to the foreign countries done in the foreign language?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No; the English edition.

            Senator HENNINGS. I have seen some of them in foreign languages.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. We do have a foreign department that does sell the right to print Superman or one of the other characters in a foreign-language edition.

            Senator HENNINGS. They are printed abroad in those instances?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is right.

            Mr. BEASER. What is sent abroad, the plates, the mats? How does it work?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. In these countries you mentioned to me just now?

            Mr. BEASER. Yes.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. We ship the actual copies you can buy here in New York City or any other place in the country.

            Mr. BEASER. Your foreign outfit would send what?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I believe they would ship them mats.

            Mr. BEASER. Now, there have been some comments made concerning American comics, crime and horror comics, in other countries. Are you aware of those?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. I bring it up with you, sir, because they mentioned specifically the Superman. And this was in the House of Commons in England about a year and a half ago in which it was said:

             That there was a considerable market for the type of horror and sadistic literature, literature which glorifies the brute, literature which undermines the law simply because it suggests that the Superman is the person who should take the law into his own hands and mete out justice in his own way. The most sinister thing about these publications is that they introduce the element of pleasure into violence. They encourage sadism, and they encourage sadism in association with an unhealthy sexual stimulation.

            Do you screen in any way the materials you send abroad insofar as they may have an adverse reaction to toward American foreign relations?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. As the Independent News Co., we do not.

            I again cannot tell you what they do upstairs. As far as I know they ship the actual mats of the magazines that are sold here in the United States.

            Mr. BEASER. They make no attempt to say these do not portray the United States in a favorable position?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That I cannot tell you.

            Senator HENNINGS. In other words, I assume the general attitude is that if we are strong enough here to take it in the United States, our friends abroad should be able to take it.

            In other words, you would not, sir, say, as counsel has suggested, this is all right to distribute in New York City and San Francisco; we should not have anything like this going to Paris and London?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir; as far as my knowledge goes of the foreign market, we have a foreign representative that must go over and present this package or this item to the various people in that country, to first of all get a man who will buy it and, secondly, get the Government to allow them to get the dollar exchange for that item.

            So I believe there is some sort of censorship or some sort of control exercised on what is distributed in those countries.

            Again, I am not familiar with it and I cannot discuss it in detail.

            Mr. BEASER. We have just put up on the board examples of some foreign-language comic books. Are any of these distributed by you?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, sir. This Ga Ga. That is Ha Ha Comics. I think that is Romantic Adventure up there, if I am not mistaken.

            Mr. BEASER. That is one of your love comics?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, that is put out by American Comics group. I don't recognize any of the others. Yes, down in this corner is Adventures Into the Unknown.

            Mr. BEASER. In the left-hand corner?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes.

            Mr. BEASER. That is the one you are not going to publish any more?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is the one that is being changed editorially.

            Mr. BEASER. To meet your new standards?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Correct.

            Mr. BEASER. Has it happened in the past, as far as the United States is concerned in the distribution, that you have conditioned the sale of Superman comics on conditions that the wholesaler take a certain specified number of the comics that you also distribute?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Absolutely not.

            Mr. BEASER. You have never tied in Superman with the other comics?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is not known in our industry, believe me.

            Mr. BEASER. Have you wholesalers who take just the Superman and do not take the other comics?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. We do not have wholesalers that take just one. We have many wholesalers that do not handle our complete line. They select what they want, but the wholesaler could not stay in business handling one comic.

            Mr. BEASER. I meant the Superman line.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, we do have some wholesalers that handle the Superman line.

            Mr. BEASER. They still get as many as they want of the Superman book?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, sir.

            Mr. BEASER. I have no further questions.

            The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has no questions, but on behalf of the committee, I want to thank you for your appearance here this morning.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Might I make one statement, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. You may.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. There has been a great deal of talk at this hearing this morning about tie-in sales from a wholesaler level to a dealer level. I want to very definitely speak out our part in that picture.

            There is no such thing as tie-in sales. I would like to demonstrate it to you gentlemen in a very few moments by a trip to any one of the agencies in the New York area, where we can show you that the retailer does not maintain all of the magazines that might be shipped to him by his wholesaler.

            I can show you that there are 400 or 500 comic magazines distributed in the United States today. There are, I believe, that many titles and you can verify that.

            The CHAIRMAN. Are they distributed monthly; is that correct?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir; there are 500 active titles, but there are approximately, I believe, 250 distributed a month. The average newsstand in the United States carries about 65 comic titles, and that is a national survey that we continue day in and day out, so that the average dealer could not possibly be forced to hold and display and try to sell the 500 comics that are distributed, no less be forced to try to sell the thousands of magazines, and books that he receives during the course of a month.

            We had an experience just yesterday where our Wholesaler in Cleveland, Ohio, called me to tell me that, because of the adverse publicity toward comic magazines that appeared in the paper in Cleveland, he had one of his larger dealers who operates 4 or 5 supermarket outlets, and who is doing a tremendous volume on comics, call him up and discontinue all comics.

            He said he would not be bothered trying to disseminate what was good and what was bad.

            Our wholesaler could do nothing about it. He had to take out all of the comics that the man was handling, and he was selling vast quantity of them.

            Our wholesaler had been very cautious about the type of comics he put into that supermarket, but, you see, his hands were tied. Now, gentlemen, if there is such a thing as tie-in sales, he could say, "You must keep them in there. You must sell those good clean comics," but he can't even do that.

            So how in the world can a statement be made that he can force a retailer to handle a specific title or a horror title or anything that you choose. It just is not done; it can't be done in this business. It just is not done from a national newsstand level, and it is not done from a local wholesale level.

            The CHAIRMAN. You are speaking for all distributors when you say that?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I am giving you clear-cut examples; yes, sir, for all distributors.

            The CHAIRMAN. Did you hear Mr. Freedman's example?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you dispute that testimony?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes, sir.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you dispute the testimony of a man who actually has daily contact with this problem?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. I dispute it; yes, sir. He cannot be forced and has never been forced to handle and try to sell any or all magazines that he receives from any source, of distribution. That we cannot do that with any retailer in the United States.

            As I say, you can have visual evidence of it in any wholesale agency you go into, or newsstand you choose to visit. I think you will find by the courthouse here there are many news dealers that handle 10 titles, and that is all they can accept, because they are open for just a short portion of the day's business and they will only handle a very limited number of titles.

            The CHAIRMAN. What do you suppose the legislatures of two great States of this country, the great State of New York ─ I am reminded there are three ─ the great State of New York, my own State of New Jersey, and I am proud to say I think it is a great State, have passed laws to control these tie-in sales, if there have not been tie-in sales?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Because, sir, I say that you have had testimony to the effect that there are definitely tie-in sales, but I do not believe that you can produce factual evidence to prove that there have been tie-in sales in this business.

            Senator HENNINGS. Do you mean in any instance whatsover?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Well, you may find an isolated case where an overzealous routeman, for example, went in and demanded that a dealer handle certain things. However, if you go to that wholesaler who that routeman works for, you will get the clear story of what goes on in our business.

            I know I can speak with authority on that sir, because I was a wholesaler myself for a number of years in the State of Massachusetts. I know what went on there. I know what is going on today.

            Mr. BEASER. I have one question, sir.

            You say that it is not possible for the wholesaler through this method of delaying credits to force a dealer to carry whatever the wholesaler wants him to carry. You heard Mr. Freedman?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. Yes. I am familiar with this delay in credits in New York City. It is not a situation that pertains to Mr. Freedman. It pertains to tie 1,400 news dealers serviced by the Manhattan News Co. and it pertains to the 16 or 17 publishers that supply Manhattan News with magazines. It is not a case of forcing magazines. They are behind in credits, both in getting the magazines to us and in getting the credits to their retailer, just in the process of sorting them, they are behind in that, and that is what has caused this picture.

            Mr. BEASER. It puts an incentive on no return?

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. No, sir; every magazine is sold, fully returnable.

            Mr. BEASER. I mean the delay in getting credit would mean that your money is tied up for a longer period.

            Mr. CHAMBERLAIN. That is a peculiar situation just as of the moment. The normal process is that a dealer gets credit the following week on his statement. That goes on all over the United States.

            You are speaking of a local situation here which is peculiar to the business.

            Mr. BEASER. No further questions.

            The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chamberlain, thank you very much for your appearance here. I commend you for your testimony.

            Counsel will call the next witness.

            Mr. BEASER. Mr. Charles Appel.

            The CHAIRMAN. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before this subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary of the United States Senate will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

            Mr. APPEL. I do.